Kendrick Lamar DAMN. Zane Lowe Interview

Zane Lowe: Look at this place. Yeah. Barbecuing later?Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, I got to.Zane Lowe: Is that you on the grill?Kendrick Lamar: I try. Burn some shit up. Make sure everybody eat it, though.Zane Lowe: Exactly. Eat it! We're really hard on this, eat it! You're fine. Coachella 2017, I suppose we should set the scene, Kendrick. You know, we're here, it's Saturday morning of weekend one, so your first performance will be tomorrow night.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Just on the surface, the way people react to the record as a body of music. Do you indulge in that or allow yourself to experience that once the album comes out, or do you disconnect?Kendrick Lamar: Man, as soon as I hit master and I just turn that thing in, I try not to listen to it or even see the actual response, you know, for a while. Because I've been attached to this, you know, piece of art for the last, you know, year and some change. I've indulged so much, I don't even want to hear it. You know, I just want to give it to the people, man, and let them take it and live with it and breathe it. You know, and then when I come back on that stage, that's when I want to feel it. That's when I want to see it. That's when I want to see your reaction. You know, because I can't get that same reaction on the internet. You know, through some comments. You know, when I go out there and I see people just really taking these songs to heart, that's the reaction.Zane Lowe: So no headlines. No one in your camp, no one trusted, goes, look, here's the overview.Kendrick Lamar: You know, you have a few that want to send it to you. I've got to curb everything.Zane Lowe: I'm so desperate to tell you now that you don't want to know.Kendrick Lamar: I mean, the internet is a tricky place, man, you know, and the way our minds work in a psychological matter, you know, we're only going to see the good things anyway. You know, we're going to block out the negative things. You know, everybody's not going to appreciate it. And I know how it works, so I don't even want to, you know, gravitate towards it. You know, I want to go out there and I want to see as you sitting in the crowd looking at me with a mummy face, then I can actually go directly to you.Zane Lowe: Right. Or as you, you know, enjoying yourself.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Well, OK, how do I navigate this next part of the interview without pulling you into a world you don't want to be in, i.e. the reaction of the record? But I feel compelled to just share with you that, you know, we all absolutely love this record.Kendrick Lamar: Appreciate it.Zane Lowe: And people are really, really pulling it apart. And I think that the kind of music that you make and the way that you make it and the way that you carry yourself and the reticence you have to over-explain things and how deep the music and dense the music is with thought really drives people to want to start pulling it apart and micromanaging each of these songs in a way, you know, and rearranging ideas and thoughts. And are you at least aware that that happens? I mean, you make music that lends itself to conspiracy effectively in many respects.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely. I'm definitely aware of that because prior to me going and recording the record, everything is probably 80% premeditated first, you know, before I actually put the words, you know, over the reference track or go in the studio and lay down vocals. Everything for me is about execution because I can go on with a thousand ideas, but if I'm not executing it right, it doesn't feel home to me, you know, so I like to put a lot of different things and, you know, word plays and messages in my music because I wanted to live further than two weeks, you know, further than an attention span of, you know, how we all was as kids, you know. We take it, we listen to it, and we move on, but I wanted to live for the next 20 years, so you have to listen to it over and over and over again, you know, to fully understand the direction and the message I put in there, the execution of it, and I want you to do that. You know, I want to challenge the way you think and challenge the way you take your music.Zane Lowe: You're hiding things down the back of couches and things that...Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, I guess that's what excites me, you know, when I listened to Jay-Z coming up as a kid, when I listened to Eminem, Pac, you know, those things that I couldn't understand, but as years progressed and I went back and listened to it again, and I've learned and I've grown and I've matured, these things blew me away, you know, when I found out what they were talking about and how certain things connected to other albums and stories that they told growing up in their communities, you know, and their whole perspective of it, so... In doing that, I love to have that same type of impact on my listener.Zane Lowe: You mentioned three of the greatest artists ever. Jay-Z.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Eminem and Tupac, all of which I hear in your music in a respectful way.Kendrick Lamar: Definitely.Zane Lowe: I kind of want to just draw one word on each of them and see how you feel. Like, for me, Jay-Z is this beautiful combination of this kind of bravado and this confidence and this also kind of vulnerability and honesty. Is that something that's influenced you throughout your life? Because I hear that in your music, you know, the ability to be able to share your own life experience, but I feel like I'm living vicariously through that, almost like I'm watching a series.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely. A whole lot of influence. My boy Dave would tell you, I was in his garage and, you know, all my ad-libs sounded like Jay-Z. My words, my flow.Zane Lowe: He was an early reference when you were trying to find your style?Kendrick Lamar: Him, Eminem. I mean, I grew up off Pac, you know, being from Compton. With Jay-Z, I wanted to have the conversational type of wordplay and aspect of things, you know, whether I'm engaging in a story or I'm just having fun. He just felt like he was natural and he was fluent with it. And, um...Zane Lowe: Because it never felt like, when I felt like he didn't write, it made sense because it never sounded like he wrote.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, yeah. I did that too.Zane Lowe: So I've heard that about you. I've heard that you go in and it's in your head.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah. But it all, you know, it all worked for me years down the line when I can go in and just do the craziest verse, you know, just off all of emotions and off my own experiences, you know, where I don't feel like I need to, um, actually put the thoughts down on paper, you know. At first, I was doing it because I just wanted to be like Jay-Z, you know. But in the time, it became a practice, you know. And by the time I got back to writing my rhymes, you know, I knew the full potential in that. I knew the creative process in that and what worked in that. And I also knew how to go in there and just spill out my feelings and show how I really feel.Zane Lowe: So you rely on both.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely.Zane Lowe: With Eminem, it's been particular on this record. Up until this record, no one has ever put so much in to one bar, two bars, four bars, 16, a full verse, full song, an album. At the end of listening to an Eminem record, the amount of information and ideas and humor and tragedy that's coming at you as a fan is just overwhelming. And you very much are that kind of artist, too. And that's obviously important to you that no word is wasted.Kendrick Lamar: Definitely. I just love words. I just love how to bend them. I love how to break them. I love how to twist them, turn them, make them in couplets.Zane Lowe: Eminem has said this to me. Have you had this conversation with him? Have you guys bonded over this? Because he said this to me. He's like, that same thing. I like to take words and I like to bend them to my will and things that shouldn't rhyme right.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah. You can manipulate it.Zane Lowe: You can manipulate it.Kendrick Lamar: And that shows the true craft and your swordsmanship. You know, a lot of the guys that actually dig into taking things that don't even necessarily rhyme, that gets them excited to know you figured out how to make that rhyme, you know, and how to take this couplet and make it a double entendre at the end. It's all acrobatics, you know. It's all acrobatics. That excites me. When I hear other people do it, it gives me a drive and hunger like, man.Zane Lowe: Tupac is more than just an influence from an artistic point of view. It feels like his spirit is traveling through your records now in many respects, the way that you refer to him, and it's a deep reference point for you. Obviously, he played a huge role on To Paper Butterfly with the piece at the end, which was beautifully done. But you reference him again on this record, you know, in particular talking about, you know, I imagine how this must be how Puck felt when he felt like the apocalypse was coming, you know what I mean? So he's never too far away from your thoughts?Kendrick Lamar: Never, ever.Zane Lowe: Why?Kendrick Lamar: It's just something, man, that I hold dear just in my memories of just growing up in the city. I mean, this dude impact, you know, not only on me but on the culture is something I can never forget, you know, from physically seeing him to hearing him on record, to him applying himself in the community and actually being right there with us. It's just something that I hold dear, you know, no matter how many times I come into my own, you know, as Kendrick Lamar, which I felt I've done that over the years. You know, you grow into your own, you know, I will always have that sense of reaching a certain standard as far as, you know, empathy and compassion toward a record the same way Pac approached music. It will always be back in the back of my head to never forget that no matter how big the hit record gets, no matter how big the album gets. Always had that compassion. And that's why his memory and his legacy in my music will never leave.Zane Lowe: Look, there's a thing that we have to talk about on this record, man.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, yeah.Zane Lowe: You know it's coming, which is that you say several times and you make this statement and you made it in half part four when you put that out. And we all knew that wasn't going to make it on the record because you've got to clear the palette. You know, but there's always a throne. There's always a crown in rap. That's how it started. My DJ is better than your DJ. I'm a better rapper than you. What is the greatest rapper alive? What are you referring to?Kendrick Lamar: You are the greatest rapper alive. I got to. I didn't, I didn't, come on. I'm so passionate about hip hop, man. Like, I don't know what era everybody else come from, but when I, I, I listened, man, like, we played house parties, bro, every night. Like, I love it to a point I can't even describe it, you know? And when I heard these artists say they're the best coming up, I said, I'm not doing it to have a good song or one good rap or a good hook or a good bridge. I want to keep doing it every time, period. And to do it every time, you have to challenge yourself and you have to confirm to yourself, not anybody else, confirm to yourself that you're the best, period. I don't, no one can take that away from me, period. And that's my drive and that's my hunger I will always have. And at this point right now, the years and the time and the effort and the knowledge and the history, you know, I've done on the culture and the game I've gotten from, you know, those before me and the respect I have for them. So, I want to hold myself high on that same pedestal 10, 15 years from now.Zane Lowe: And that's where you were going when you were so blunt on Control. You were like, I need to say this, this is what I mean.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, what are we doing it for? Right. This is culture. This is not something you just play with, you know, get a few dollars and get out. You know, people lend their lives to this music, period. You know, it's my partners in the hood right now that they listen to rap every day because it's the only thing that can relate to their stories and their tribulations. They live and breathe it. You can't play with this. And you have to take in consideration what you write down in that paper. And if you're not doing it to say the most impactful shit or doing it to be the best you can be for the listener to live their daily lives, then what are we doing here?Zane Lowe: We came out of an experience with To Pimp a Butterfly, which as albums go was different again. You know, if this is state of mind, that was sort of state of times.Kendrick Lamar: Exactly.Zane Lowe: And, you know, I wondered, when you put out To Pimp a Butterfly, were you aware of what you created as a document and what it said? And did the reaction that the record received eventually, when you realized what it was doing and how people were adopting it and using it beyond just music, was that something you'd hoped for?Kendrick Lamar: Definitely. Definitely. It was something I wanted to shed light on, you know, what was going on in my community, what was going on around the world, what was going on with my people. I always felt the need to approach it in an aspect where I'm not even thinking about right now. This record has to live and teach the same way Ty lived, the same way Jay, the same way Common, the same way Ice Cube taught us back in 91. And I went back 15 years later and I learned from it. This album has to teach not only in these times, but for the future, you know, to understand our history, what we was going through in 2010, 2012, 2014, 15. And we can go back and you can apply that knowledge with whatever's going on in the future. That right there is going to help the next individual, the next Kendrick Lamar, the next kid on the corner to make whatever situation they're in a better situation, not only for themselves, but for those around them. You know, so the success of that record didn't come from the accolades and the awards. For me, it came from people going out there and singing all right in the middle of these streets and, you know, taking pride and dignity into where they come from and where they want to go, you know, and expressing themselves. A lot of people don't have voices out here, so to see them actually express themselves through song, you know, through lyrics that I wrote, that's confirmation for me. You know, that's confirmation for me that the passion and the insight, the thoughts that I put into these records, you know, is far beyond me. And the Pimper Butterfly, that gave me this fire, man, a different type of fire to know that music is just not about, you know, putting your lyrics and saying cool things on the record. It just kept, it just really affirmed, you know, confirmation for me that what I do is not for Kendrick Lamar, man. Like, period. And that record did that for me. It let me know that, you know, there's people out there that go through real things that want to hear this.Zane Lowe: The success of their record in those terms that have reached so many people in a deep way. And ultimately, you had to try and detach yourself from that connection in some regard because it belongs to them now.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: You know, but also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I hear real themes of self-preservation on Dan.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely.Zane Lowe: Like, okay, I did that. I made that. It's worked. It's going to, it's working. It's going to continue to work. But at what, does it take a toll on you? And at what point do you withdraw yourself back into something that you can control? Because you can't control what people are doing with Butterfly.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely. The best way for me to put it, to Pimp A Butterfly would be the idea of the thought of changing the world, you know, and how we work and how we approach things. Dan would be the idea of I can't change the world until I change myself, you know. So when you listen to records like Pride, Humble, Lust," and "LOVE., Love, these are all just human emotions and me looking in the mirror and coming to grips with them, you know. And thinking of the idea of the world itself and combining them in two records, I will hope the listener can take heed and grab something from both of them two ideas and carry out their day to the best potential of themselves they see.Zane Lowe: What came first? The song titles, the words, the idea, the list that the track listing has become, or the music and then you would apply a word to the song that you'd make?Kendrick Lamar: It would be the music. It would be the music.Zane Lowe: So you finish the track and then you go, this is the word that's going to identify that song.Kendrick Lamar: Well, what happens is that word comes across in some of the lyrics.Zane Lowe: Yeah.Kendrick Lamar: You know, while I'm writing it, it's the first thing I'll grab from as far as inspiration. The word comes across in some of the lyrics and I just pull that word out, but keep the record, you know. And that actual word is what represents the whole idea of the song.Zane Lowe: Yeah, so it's a lot of lost verses, you know.Kendrick Lamar: Imagine.Zane Lowe: Let's just get a few sort of facts on the record. You said just over a year you were working on the album.Kendrick Lamar: Mm-hmm. Yeah.Zane Lowe: How do you start a record? Does it have a starting point or are you just creating before you know it?Kendrick Lamar: Man, I sit and I think all day, you know, all day. That's why I said 80% of it is just me prepping myself to get back in there, you know, to first acknowledge how I'm feeling in the moment.Zane Lowe: I was going to say, is it as simple as you asking yourself, what do I want or in fact, what do I have to say this time? What can I say after what I just went through?Kendrick Lamar: It's more about what's true to me and what will impact the person listening.Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm.Kendrick Lamar: The idea of making that connection again but without being a false story, you know.Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm.Kendrick Lamar: You know, people can write about anything, but if I don't feel it, then the listener sure enough ain't going to feel it. Simple as that. So the first idea is me coming to grips with what I'm feeling at the moment, you know, when I have records like Feel or I have records like Fear or Pride, you know. These are some of the first initial ideas, you know, coming across music. I sit with beats, you know. We create them from scratch and I just sit and live with it until I'm able to reach that point of this is what I feel like.Zane Lowe: And that could take days?Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, it could take months.Zane Lowe: Months.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, it could take months. The right approach or it could take two minutes, you know. And me understanding that process and knowing how I work, you know, to execute it is the best for me. And I have a great team around me that has a lot of patience because sometimes I can't just pull these words out of the sky. I have to really just indulge myself in it.Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm. So if you started making this record just over a year ago, we were still in a very different situation in America. We had a different president.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: And it was still very much in that world of Tipimpa Butterfly.Kendrick Lamar: Mm-hmm.Zane Lowe: And then within, you know, months or the end of last year, it all changed. Everything changed.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: You know, and I'd imagine that, you know, you're someone who absorbs what's going on around you. And was it hard for it not to just veer directly into that world there because politics changed so dramatically overnight?Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. It's definitely tough. I mean, I have a lot of records.Zane Lowe: Yeah. Do you?Kendrick Lamar: A lot of records.Zane Lowe: So you expressed yourself privately. So you have records that cover that.Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Heavily. Easily. Just off of pure frustration. Just off of simple, the wow factor of what's going on. And, yeah, simple as that, definitely.Zane Lowe: So what happens is I have these records and, you know, certain things that are in these songs and I may pour pieces from, you know, to make sure that.Kendrick Lamar: It's covered. It's covered. It's covered to where I feel like I feel better about it that the listener know or that he know.Zane Lowe: So it's the sharpest message in the shortest amount of time.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, in the shortest amount of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.Zane Lowe: I think a lot of people were probably expecting a heavier reflection of that, of this time.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Because of what had happened with Butterfly and maybe some people thought, okay, well, we're in a different place now. Donald Trump's president. Is that going to be more heavily reflected on the new music? I think there was a...Kendrick Lamar: Right, exactly. But I wanted a more self, you know, self-evaluation, yeah, discipline. Because what's going on now, we're not focusing on him. What's going on now, we're focusing on self. You see, you know, different nationalities and cultures are coming together, man, and actually standing up for themselves. You get what I'm saying?Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm.Kendrick Lamar: And I think that's a pure reflection of this record. Prior to me, it's even happening. Prior to even coming out. We say, okay, we can't control. Now we see we can't control what's going on out there. You know, it's a whole other power to be. So what we can do now, we can start coming together and figuring out our own problems and our own solutions, you know? And I think that's...Zane Lowe: I believe, I know that this is what this album reflects. That's what Damn. is.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely.Zane Lowe: Take a look. Take a look at yourself and ourselves.Kendrick Lamar: Exactly. Just stop blaming everybody else for the decisions that we didn't make proactively.Zane Lowe: Proactive. Proactive. Proactive. I want to start going through the record.Kendrick Lamar: Mm-hmm.Zane Lowe: Because, you know, 14 pieces of music or 14 tracks.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Starting with Blood.Kendrick Lamar: Blood.Zane Lowe: It's like a parable. Oh, there's a million things in there. You're going to have to pull up where you've got to pull up because you know me, it's my job is to go deep. And there are people who are just like, go deep. So you've got to protect yourself as in where you have to protect yourself. But, I mean, let's just talk about it. What is it in relation to the record? What can you tell us about that opening? Because I know that you want people to discover it in time. But to me, it's a parable.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: What can I say about that? What I was saying about that.Kendrick Lamar: It is one of the most interesting pieces on the record.Zane Lowe: Man, I don't even think I can find the wit to tell you about that record, man, without telling you about that record. It's a new life. It's a new life.Kendrick Lamar: Is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?Zane Lowe: I can't tell you that. That's what I can't tell you.Kendrick Lamar: Come on now. That's the whole thing.Zane Lowe: Come on. I had to ask them.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, I know. That's the whole thing.Zane Lowe: Okay. All right. DNA. As opening lines go, you know, I got loyalty, I got royalty inside my DNA. Did you know when you came up with that, wrote that, was making that track, that that was the kind of start in many respects? That was going to be the opening line of the record.Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's one lesson I learned from Ice Cube.Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm.Kendrick Lamar: He said, if your first opening lines don't grab the listener, it ain't shit, period. You know, it has to be a statement.Zane Lowe: He would know, man.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, yeah.Zane Lowe: Got shit with some motherfuckers.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, yeah, come on, man. Yeah, and it has to be a statement. And I don't care if the statement is blunt or the statement is, you know, held back. They got to feel it regardless, you know what I'm saying? And people are going to feel it if they know it's real and true to you.Zane Lowe: You say a lot in that opening verse. I mean, you get a lot out. It's very quick. I mean, the idea of DNA, and you sum it up brilliantly at the end with Sex, Money, Murder, Our DNA, and you make it about all of us. But it's a very personal journey in the beginning. You're like, I'm going in.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely. There's three types of themes in that record. It's me recognizing the world around me. It's me recognizing the lifestyle that I've grown to see and indulge in from time to time. From a famous perspective. To come into grips to the idea of knowing who Man Man was, you know, as a seven-year-old boy and figuring out who they see as Kendrick Lamar, you know. And taking all these different aspects and personalities from my own perspective, from me, from my soul, and putting them in the record. You know, so you're going to hear different tones. You're going to hear a baritone. You're going to hear me breaching out the water like a well, you know. And you're going to hear that same hunger and that same desire that I had as a kid, you know. But through record, through my own DNA, through my own bloodline, it's just everything who I am.Zane Lowe: You have this remarkable relationship with religion, at least in your work.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: The way that it features is, it's hard to put it in a circle, you know what I mean? But it's constantly there. In DNA, you make reference to it. It shows new weapon. And it made me think, like, you know, you often refer to yourself as, it's almost like, where would you be in the religious line of hundreds of years ago, as opposed to right now?Kendrick Lamar: Right.Zane Lowe: You know what I mean?Kendrick Lamar: Right. But I've always had that, I mean, we are spiritual beings, period. And that's something I can't ever run from in music, you know. And when I say as a weapon, going back to the line that you referenced, I always felt like God used me as a vessel, period. You know, whether to show my flaws, whether to show my intellect, to show my pain, to show my hurt, to share my stories, to share his message, all across the board. You know, that's, me personally, that's always been a vessel. You know, I could say the nastiest thing on record, period. But I still feel like that's a vessel. You need to hear that because I can't sugarcoat the reality of what's going on out here. I can't sugarcoat the reality of my imperfections, period. So when you hear certain things and certain things you may not like, you may have discomfort from. It's out of my hands. These words, you know, they're not just made up words. You know, when I say I sit and I live with them, you know, and I really zone into them, these are ideas that's coming way beyond me. And that's just how I feel about it since day one.Zane Lowe: Working with Mike Will, who's on a serious wave right now.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Unbelievable. I thought you'd work on Perfect Pain as well. It's one of my favorite songs on Ransom.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, man.Zane Lowe: The track's incredible. Let's talk about your relationship with him creatively and how you guys get what you get together and what you like about working with him as a producer.Kendrick Lamar: You know what's crazy about me and Mike Will, we've been in the studio for a long time.Zane Lowe: Longer than we would know?Kendrick Lamar: Longer than you guys would know. But we never made records. You know, he always said to each other, man, one day we're going to make them records.Zane Lowe: Yeah.Kendrick Lamar: We're going to make them joints, you know. And we always say timing. That's our thing. Timing is everything. He hit me on a text. He was like, is it time yet? I'm like, no, it ain't time yet. It ain't time yet.Zane Lowe: How do you let somebody down like that on a text?Kendrick Lamar: I mean, what happens is, you know, you build a relationship with people, you know, and it's further than just, you know.Zane Lowe: Live service.Kendrick Lamar: You can be honest.Zane Lowe: Right.Kendrick Lamar: Trying to smart talk and then, you know, keep someone ego right.Zane Lowe: How did you know it was time?Kendrick Lamar: Just the moment of how I was feeling from the aggression I wanted to take and the approach that I wanted to take. And the urgent feel I know, you know, the producers, you know, the go-to. And I know who's going to bring that thing that inspires the right lyrics for me, you know, so.Zane Lowe: I want to talk to you about Ja. And we have to talk about, I mean, the way that it fits into the record, the news reports. It's very Ice Cube, actually. The way he would take when people would pull apart his philosophy and take that and use it back in it.Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah.Zane Lowe: So, you know, that report that came out that followed the BET performance, when did you first hear about that?Kendrick Lamar: When I first hear about that? Probably as soon as it came out.Zane Lowe: Did you actually see it?Kendrick Lamar: Yeah. Well, someone sent it to me.Zane Lowe: Right.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, so I didn't see it live. I thought it was just a trip. You know, I thought it was a clickbait because anybody that know me, they know that, you know, I represent my people, you know. And the culture the right way. So to try to attack my character, you know, and make it an actual stunt, I wasn't for it.Zane Lowe: Do you have a relationship with media in the sense that you use it or you look to it for information or do you detach yourself from that?Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm aware. Definitely. Definitely. I have to see what's going on. I have to know what's going on. I have to do my research on what's going on to let me know that you're not just feeding me bullshit. Yeah, I got to find a back story and I have to apply my own knowledge.Zane Lowe: Do you think the media is doing its job right now?Kendrick Lamar: It's the media doing it. The media always has some twists and some turns, you know. Like my mother said, you got to know when to listen and when to shut your ears off.Zane Lowe: Holding them and when to fold them. Let's talk about the song called Element.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: I love the fact you brought Kid Capri and the Mixtape King, legendary hip-hop personality and DJ into the whole thing. What was the inspiration behind using Kid Capri?Kendrick Lamar: Oh, man. That's a great question. The funny thing is that was probably one of the first ideas I had for this record.Zane Lowe: Crazy.Kendrick Lamar: I wanted it to feel like just the raw elements of hip-hop, you know, whether I'm using 808s or whether I'm using some boom-bap drums. You know, the idea of having Kid Capri, you know, the initial thought was having him off like some real trappy 808s, you know, something I've never heard from him. And I got in the studio, man, I had him do like a thousand takes, you know, but he's the greatest, you know, to ever even do it, period. He knocked them shits out, man, and yeah, he's there. He's rocking.Zane Lowe: Let's talk about Loyalty. Let's fast forward a little bit, because I love Feel, you know that.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Zane Lowe: But I really want to get to Loyalty because you work with Rihanna on that record. I mean, one of a few key sort of outward collaborators on that outside of production work.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: How did that happen? How was that experience? Were you in the same room? Let me paint a picture for us.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, definitely, man. I've always wanted to work with Rihanna. I love everything about her, you know, her artistry, how she represent women, you know, to not only be themselves, but express themselves, the way she express herself through music and how she carry herself. I love everything about her, so I always wanted to work with her. I had the record, I did the record, and immediately her name just popped up, reached out, and we locked in the studio, and we made it happen.Zane Lowe: Good vibes?Kendrick Lamar: Great vibes.Zane Lowe: Quickly done?Kendrick Lamar: Great vibes. She got amazing energy. She's a vibe itself.Zane Lowe: Yeah, yeah.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Love.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: This is like a beautiful love song, but of course, complex as always.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Tell us about that.Kendrick Lamar: Oh, man. My guy, Zach.Zane Lowe: Yeah.Kendrick Lamar: The guy singing on the record. We was in the studio vibing, and he playing tracks after track, after track, after track. This dude is an amazing talent, and I've always loved to have fresh ears and bring fresh, well, present, you know, fresh talent to the world, period, because it's so much good out there that you've got to always make sure that people are able to hear it. And being that a lot of shit don't get heard, that's great. He's one of the guys, so he's playing this record, man, this beat and these drums, and it just feels like euphoria, you know, immediately. We knocked it out probably like the next day.Zane Lowe: Beautiful experience to be able to focus on something as overtly positive as that.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Definitely. Because you have to really, to write a love song like that, you have to put yourself in a place where you have to try and just put it in.Zane Lowe: Put everything else to one side.Kendrick Lamar: Exactly. And that's why I say we knocked it out as soon as possible.Zane Lowe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, I heard the beat, and immediately, you know, I just go back to this space of, you know, being a teen, and you just now figuring out what is the concept of actually further being attracted to a woman, but actually loving someone, you know, and feeling that type of love and getting your heart broken, you know, going back to that space and the simple idea and the simple concept of love and that feeling amongst all the other madness around the album.Zane Lowe: I was going to ask you, I mean, to have that in your life, to be settled in a relationship, you know, that seems to be well and kind of strong, must be hugely grounding given the kind of craziness that you exist in. It's not a normal existence.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, exactly, and that's the yin and the yang, you know, you can't have love, you know, without, you know, your pride affecting it, you know, without having to take your ego out of the situation, you know, throwing your humble, the idea of that, you know, around, you know. So, I felt there was a perfect exclamation mark, you know.Zane Lowe: I want to talk about XXX.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: Features you two. Bonner's often said, you know, to me in public that America is an idea.Kendrick Lamar: Mm-hmm.Zane Lowe: And he sort of, that sentiment is in that song, you know, he talks about it's a sound, it's not a place.Kendrick Lamar: Right.Zane Lowe: You know.Kendrick Lamar: Crazy lyrics.Zane Lowe: Crazy lyrics.Kendrick Lamar: Couple bars.Zane Lowe: Impactful.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: What does XXX mean to you? What does it?Kendrick Lamar: XXX is an idea of complete chaos and madness. That's what I got from it. Organized madness, controlled madness, you know, us trying to control this madness. So, when you hear them lyrics of what he's saying, you know, it's a place, you know, it's an idea. It's kind of us trying to control that idea through lyrics, through song, you know.Zane Lowe: Is it a good idea, even the original idea, of what America is?Kendrick Lamar: For better or for worse, it's a content idea. A content idea. Simple as that.Zane Lowe: Mm-hmm. You know, that's one of the songs that you do kind of like touch on Donald Trump as president.Kendrick Lamar: Right.Zane Lowe: It makes its way into that again, you know, in a situation where you're like, you know, okay, this is the world we live in right now.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: It wasn't the world we were in before. You had a story, you know, you have a really personal relationship with Barack Obama, and I wonder what that left in you as a person, the chance to meet him, the chance to share thoughts with him and have ideas with him as the president at that moment in time. What you took from that experience?Kendrick Lamar: What I took from that experience was the idea of knowing that it takes more, it's going to take more than just an eight-year idea of four years, idea of change. You know, a lot of times, being a kid when he was elected, well, not a kid, just a younger adult, we get the idea, or I got the idea that it's going to a 360 like that. So me having a conversation with him and him sitting me down, he says, change don't, you know, don't start while I'm here. It starts once we leave the space that we're in. That was the idea, you know, and subconsciously that goes to the idea of me self-evaluating my own personal thoughts, the way I think, and what I'm going to take from this meeting and do when I go outside this building, you know? So that was the experience. That was something I always hold dear, just the idea of knowing that in the moment of time, I have to think further than this year or last year. You've got to prep yourself for the next decade of what you're going to do that's going to result to changing the idea or the thoughts that we have consumed for so many years.Zane Lowe: You guys are free to hoop now, right? Are you going to have that game?Kendrick Lamar: We've got the court right here. We've got the court right here. You jump on that PJ.Zane Lowe: I keep putting this out in the media, too.Kendrick Lamar: I've got to see that left-handed person. We've got the court right here.Zane Lowe: That's not going away. Dude, there's so much to talk about. I can't believe we're coming to an end of our time. I mean, I just don't want to leave anything. I'm done. So I'm going to get to Duckworth.Kendrick Lamar: Okay.Zane Lowe: I mean, there's this incredible end to the record, which just shows how tenuous it all is. Do you know what I mean? It's on a rope, isn't it? It's on a tight rope at all times, and left or right can change everything the whole time.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: When did you realize that that story, that that had happened? When did you realize that they knew each other? When did that story get shared with you? Were you in the room when they worked it out and looked at each other? I mean, just...Kendrick Lamar: About a year after I met Top Dog. I met him when I was 16. So my pops came to the studio after I'd been locked in with him for a minute, and we got a relationship now. Bring my pops to, you know. He heard, you know, I was dealing with Top Dog, but my pops personally don't know him as Top Dog. You know, the industry know him as Top Dog. Before he was Top Dog, he was another name. And so when he walked in that room and he seen that Top Dog was this guy, they flipped. I mean, flipped.Zane Lowe: Yeah, still to this day.Kendrick Lamar: And Top flipped as well?Zane Lowe: Top making that straight away?Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah. Still to this day. They laugh, and they laugh, and they trip out, and they tell the same story over and over to each other, you know.Zane Lowe: Have you been waiting to tell that story?Kendrick Lamar: Have I been waiting?Zane Lowe: Or was it just the right time?Kendrick Lamar: It was just the right time. Top himself didn't know I was going to do it or even execute it in that fashion to be the last song or to be anywhere, just making it make sense. I remember playing it for him, and he flipped, you know, because further than the song, when you really can hear the words, hear your life, you know, in words, you know, that is so true to you and that affected your life 100% through one decision, it really make you sit back and cherish the moment, you know. And I think that's something that we all did playing that record. Like, man, look where we at. We're recording music for the world to hear, and we're taking care of our families, and, you know, we're blessed. But listen to these words, like, this is what happened. This is real life. This is amazing. And since a kid, man, I always said to myself, bro, anything is possible. And it always comes around tenfold, 100% confirmation. And that story is confirmation.Zane Lowe: You can tell that all great artists have this, you know, this kind of internal battle with maybe who I was, who I am, who I want to be, who other people want me to be. And this record is rife with that. I mean, I really feel like this is a deeply human album. That's the only way I can describe it. I've been trying to find words to describe it. And the most simple way is it's a really human experience, listening to this record.Kendrick Lamar: Definitely. The best word to describe for me is an album about my own self-discipline. That's my favorite word this past year, discipline, you know, and obedience, you know, and how to control your own emotions and how to even speak that truth on a record, you know, to expose yourself even more, to have that closer connection with another human and have them relate to it. You know, it's not easy telling your truths, you know, and things that you fear, you know, from when you were 7, 17, and even a couple years ago, you know. But I know at the end of the day that, you know, the music is not for me. It's for somebody else that's going through a f***ed up day to listen to and progress in their lives. And that's the reason why I always choose to have that dynamic when approaching it, you know, being selfless in the whole situation.Zane Lowe: You've been recording, making a lot of music, you know, that's appeared on this record. I'm sure there's a lot of music that didn't appear on this record.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, man, XXX has six verses on that thing.Zane Lowe: Yeah, that's why the changes are so crazy. Are we talking just a huge amount of music that we've never heard before?Kendrick Lamar: Yeah.Zane Lowe: The process to get to where you need to get to?Kendrick Lamar: Oh, yeah, because, you know, my process, I have to premeditate and I throw all the paint on the wall I can and I pull from it.Zane Lowe: You know, people think that there's a resurrection this Easter weekend. Man, there's some things in that album. As if Damn. is not enough. As if Damn. is not enough. I'm still trying to get my head around that and yet already people are just like, there's another one coming.Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, there's some things in that album, but it ain't that one. But there are things. And, you know, a lot of time, people that listen to my music, they're really good. They're really, really, really good.Zane Lowe: Yeah.Kendrick Lamar: Like, these are some.Zane Lowe: You must laugh out loud when they get it right.Kendrick Lamar: Oh, man. Man, I'll be mind blown. I'll be blown away.Zane Lowe: Well, you're doing that to us all the time. I think I got through 30% of what I wanted to get through, but it was a beautiful 30%.Kendrick Lamar: I appreciate that.Zane Lowe: No, I really appreciate the opportunity to sit with you, man. I know you don't do it often. And, you know, just, you know, I hope we got enough of everybody right now. But if not, like you say, it's all in the album, right?Kendrick Lamar: Yeah, man.Zane Lowe: All right. Appreciate that. 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